While some folks dismissed W.A.S.P. early on as mere 'shock rockers,' it became clear over time that the band went much deeper than that.  With the emergence of albums like The Headless Children and The Crimson Idol, the man at the wheel - Blackie Lawless - began to explore some very complex social and personal themes.  The music became a lot more than just the typical L.A. rock of the late 80s, too, and the band really set off on their own course.  Here we are in 2002 and Blackie has penned Dying For the World, probably the most personal W.A.S.P. album to date and, in my book, one of the best.  I got a chance to pick his brain recently and was delighted to find him to be one of the most thoughtful and eloquent musicians I've spoken to…

How did the recording session for Dying For the World go?
I try to make records that reflect who I am at the moment.  The reason I do that is I have found that to be the most truthful way of trying to relate to an audience.  In other words, I'm not trying to look at trends, I'm not trying to look at charts, I'm not trying to think about who I was ten years ago or who I think I'm going to be five years from now.

Each W.A.S.P. album is fairly different from the others, esp. the last three or four.  Do you make an effort to keep trying new things each time?
I always try to do something differently, just to keep it interesting for myself.  If not, you find yourself getting into formulization and that's dangerous.  I was listening to The Beatles' Revolver album while I was making this record - and I was listening to that record a lot - and the one thing that hit me was I had never really seen anybody take the psychedelic elements from the 60s and put them together with heavy rock and I thought it was a really interesting approach.  So I started using a lot of backwards tapes, and backwards echoes.  If you listen to this record, you'll hear that all over this record.  When I did that, it opened up my creativity, opened up a door and took me to a place I'd never been before.  The possibility of combining those different styles, it set my imagination on fire.  To be quite honest, I've really just touched the tip of the iceberg of what is possible.

So this is really a headphones-type album?
We're going to remix this thing in 5.1, wait til you hear that.  I've heard 5.1 and I wasn't impressed with it, but when records are made to be recorded in that format, it's unbelievable what is possible.  It's going to revolutionize the recording industry.  It's going to do to stereo what stereo did to mono.

Is that a lot more time intensive to mix?
Big time.  You're going from two speakers to five or six.  Think of it in a simplified way.  The simplest way to think of it is there are two basic philosophies of how a rock band sets up.  One is what you've been accustomed to most of your life, where you go to a show and the band's on the stage and they are coming one direction at the audience.  When we rehearse, especially for records, we don't set up like that.  We set up in the round, with the drummer in the middle and all the amps pointing toward the center.  We do that so we can all hear what we are doing evenly.  When a band's on stage, depending on where you stand on stage, that's all you hear.  Even in the middle where I'm standing it's not the same as when all the amps are pointed in toward the middle.  The basic difference with stereo, you hear what the band gets on stage, and with 5.1 you'll hear what the band does when they're rehearsing.  It's really two different worlds.  That's the bare nuts and bolts, but with the capability of having that rehearsal room move simultaneously while the music is going on.  And it's not that expensive for people to change their systems and when they do and they really get into it and enough records are released that are recorded in that format, it's the difference between not between b&w and color but between b&w and 3-D.  It's wild.

The song that struck me the most on Dying For the World was "Trail of Tears" - when did you first learn of that piece of history and what prompted you to write a song about it at this point?
I'm part American Indian, I'm part Blackfoot.  This is something that is an overview of what really happened in the history books.  It would be the equivalent of opening up a contemporary history book and having a paragraph that said, 'Oh yeah, we had a thing called the Second World War.  And then after that Kennedy was elected.'  That's what it would be like.  It's like whoa-whoa-whoa, back up a second!  Didn't you forget about the genocide part?  Because that's what that was, attempted genocide on an entire race of people.  White folks are evil motherfuckers, they really are.  I am part white as well, so I have that conflict in me.  Sometimes it is hard to figure out whose side to be on.

One thing in the liner notes you had a warning about killing yourself for other people and neglecting yourself.  Was there a point in your life where that was the case?
I don’t' think so, I just like the dichotomy of the two thoughts.  Originally it started out with that and then I went to the extreme opposite of that and the first thing that came to mind was the old Biblical idea of 'Would the man profit if he gained the world but lost his soul.'  In other words, you go from living for everyone else to the extreme opposite of living only for yourself.  I just thought it was an interesting way of comparing the two.  And later 9/11 rolls around and adds a whole different factor to the equation.  At the same time, I'm never really keen on trying to paint people into a corner when it comes to art.  I love the idea of abstract art and using it to allow people to come to their own conclusions.  I want them to fire their own imagination, I don’t' want to spoon feed them.

The 90s were difficult time for a lot of metal bands, but you guys managed to survive and come out stronger on the other side.
I'm in a really weird space because I have my.. it's a cult.  (laughs)  I'll be honest, that's what it is.  They give me the freedom to go off and do my own little tangents and my own self-indulgences and things.  I'm just trying to be a voice for a generation.  It's not that I really set out to do that, it just happened along the way.  It's not that I'm on a pedestal or anything, it is just that any artist that's been doing this for a long time, like ten years or more and is threatening to make a career out of it or has actually made a career out if it, they get elected by a generation to be a voice, whether they want to be or not.  Somewhere along the way, you wake up and go, 'Hey wow, how come I am the one expected to make this statement?' or whatever.  So by default, you find yourself making statements that maybe you wouldn't have even thought of in the first part of your career.  The first part of my career was focused basically on me.  If you go back to the first album, the songs that bookend that album are "I Wanna Be Somebody" and the last song is called "The Torture Never Stops."  Think about that coming from the same author, from the same mindset.  It's quite a statement.  I'm knee-deep in all this blood and guts and I'll do whatever it takes to get me to where I need to go and in the meantime I'm going through hell, but I'm not going to go away until I get what I want.  But like I said, it is completely self-indulgent, but that's who I was at the moment.   I think every artist, especially when they first start, is scared to death of the 'R' word, Responsibility.  When you start to develop a really cult following, they are really paying attention to what you are saying whether you want to acknowledge it or not.  It's kind of like Charles Barkley sitting up there and saying, 'I am not a role model' - bullshit, you are, whether you want to live in denial with your head in the sand or not.  On top of that, I’m the kind of person who majored in political psych; all that stuff starts coming out.  If you're going to end up being a voice for a generation, whether it is by design or by default, you might as well say something.  I always feel like I have pretty general tastes, regardless of my image or what I've done.  I like the same food, the same music and movies and TV as everybody else - I'm painfully normally, you'd be surprised.  But that's a blessing at the same time because I figure if there is something out there that means something to me, it is probably going to matter to a lot of other people as well.  I'm not so locked away in my own world that I ever lost touch with that element of myself.  If anything, it has probably helped magnify some of those feelings.  Basically, what I'm saying with my music is, 'Hey, this is me, this is what I'm thinking, this is what is affecting the world. What do you think?'  We're just comparing notes here.  For people, I think a lot of times it is frustrating because they are feeling a certain way but nobody is speaking for them.  I throughout my career have made some bold statement and you'd be surprised by some of the feedback I get from the fans, where people say, 'Hey man, you know how long I've been thinking this but nobody had the balls to say it?'  That's fairly gratifying.

I seem to remember you expressing some interest in possibly getting involved in politics back in the early 90s.  Is that something you still might do one day or do you have too much music still to get out?
Whenever you think about that sort of stuff, it's a very romantic idea, but anybody who ever made positive changes in that form usually ends up getting shot for it.  Do I really want to go through that?  I've been so lucky for so long to live in an environment where I never had to compromise.  And if it is true that politics is the art of compromise, I probably would not do well.  It's not that I'm bull-headed or pig-headed, I just have this very intense sense of what I believe is right and wrong and I'm just not real good at caving into stuff.  I've also come to the conclusion that, especially where I'm at now at this point in my life, I'm probably better off being where I'm at.  I can make more positive change than having to compromise in a place that would probably nauseate me every moment I was there.

Is there anything about your world view that has changed from the time you were first starting out, any life lessons that might be worth passing on to younger bands or musicians just starting out?
That's a tough one...  I wouldn't think that there is anything for me that has changed, but the one thing that does amaze me over and over is people's inability to visualize what is going to be or what could be.  I wrote The Crimson Idol about this whole story because the one question I would get asked more often than any other was, 'Hey, give me some advice, how do I get from where I'm at to where you're at?'  And you tell them, 'You've got to be willing to pay the price,' and they're like, 'Yeah yeah, I'll pay the price.'  They have no clue what they are saying.  So I'm going to tell them a story and show them the worst side of the business, a side that I don't think anybody ever really talked about before, not that I know about anyway, as far as making records.  I'll do this and once they hear this story, if they still want to do it, go for it, be my guest.  The Crimson Idol was written on a lot of different levels, but the one thing that probably hits people the most is the initial interpretation that it was based on a kid who was trying to get famous, and he was.  But once you get to understand the story, that's really the cover of the book, it's not really what the story is at all.  The initial effect that I was trying to have on people was trying to get them to understand that show business is not looking for people who want to do this, it is looking for people who must do this.  And there is a huge difference between want and must.  Because everybody wants in life, but few are willing to pay the price that accompanies must.  That’s the one thing that I can never say enough.  I've lived in L.A. for twenty-seven years and I came here as a 19-year-old and one of the things that is constantly in your face is the whole idea of people coming there with stars in their eyes.  There was a Hollywood chamber of commerce statistic that said a teenage girl came to Hollywood once every 27 seconds I think it was and that was just teenage girls, not the guys or the people over 20.  The average mortality rate was about six months - not that they'd die, but something would happen to them or they'd go back home or whatever - very few of them could make it here.  On the album, The Crimson Idol there is a song called "Chainsaw Charlie (Murders in the New Morgue)."  Well, the 'new morgue' is this meat factory that they have in Hollywood and they use fresh souls to keep that thing fueled.  That's the one thing that I think people just don't get.  Hey, if you can't live without it, then go for it, definitely.  But that's the question that I ask people the most is, 'Can you live without it?'  And more often than not, they go, 'Yeah.'  And that's when I'm painfully blunt with them and say, 'Then my suggestion for you is to find another line of employment, because you will not make it.  I'm not trying to be cruel to you; I'm just telling you the truth.'

Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of people who can't live without it who still don't make it.
Yeah, but you know what?  It's better to try and fail.  I know people who fit this description, too, who turn 40 years old and look themselves in the mirror and know they didn’t' do whatever because they didn't have the guts to go for it.  Of all the places to be, I think that's the one I would want to be in the least.

The past year has seen the passing of two of rock n' roll's greats, George Harrison and John Entwistle.  I was wondering if you had any reflections on their work and how they influenced you as a musician.
It's funny because I'm sitting here on eBay looking at Vox amps.  I don't know if you know anything about Vox amps, but I'm sitting here looking at something specifically that George Harrison used to use, so you must have felt me.  (laughs)  Well, it was everything.  I was a kid growing up and my mother was a professional dancer and always had music around the house, she was a big rock 'n' roll fan - Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, stuff like that.  My sister who was older than me was a big Beatles fan.  I grew up in New York and was there when the Beatles came over - I was a little kid, but I remember them turning the place upside down.  What can you say?  Those things leave lasting impacts on you.  This week is the 25th anniversary of Elvis' passing.  My first memory of anything, as a human just being on this planet, I was 2 years old and I heard Chuck Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen," that was my first memory of life.  Every time I hear that song to this day, it moves me… it is really hard to put into words.  I've been asked many times over the years, 'When did you first get into music?' and I tell them and it is hard for them to absorb, but I never had the thought.  I never thought about getting into music, it's almost like I'm a run-on sentence, I just do what I do.  I don't remember consciously making the decision.  I didn't choose it, it chose me, and I'm just fulfilling a destiny.  My body is almost a vessel for what it is I'm supposed to be doing.  That may sound really eclectic to you, but it is very simple.  I've learned and been learning to get your brain out of the way and let the subconscious come through, it's amazing the impact it has on you and how it simplifies things and you find out who you are and what you're supposed to be doing.  So I'm just floating along, doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

To further answer your question, I can't really put into words the impact that they've had on me.  I remember a year ago at Graceland, standing in front of Elvis' grave, tears rolling down my face, and I thought to myself, 'I know this man.'  And when I say that, I don't mean like a fan - I know that man.  I never met him, but I know how he thought and why he thought the way he did, his world that was around him, what motivated him, I knew that man like I would have known a brother.  I'm talking about from a performer's point of view, what motivated him, what kept him going, and ultimately what killed him, which are part and parcel of the same thing.  So, those are things I can't put into words.  I have a room in my house where I write that is floor to ceiling, wall to wall, Beatles gold and platinum records.  Having been fortunate enough to be on Capitol, their label, over the years I collected stuff that (laughs) I really shouldn't have been privilege to.  I remember when we originally signed the deal with Capitol, they asked me if there was anything I wanted, and I said I wanted a platinum Sgt. Pepper record.  These things have had enormous impact.  Entwistle, I considered him a friend.  I remember standing behind the PA on his side of the stage, watching him, and I just started laughing at him.  Because he was just soooo good!  I remember making the comment after the show that he was the best on any instrument that I had ever seen.  I mean, he's over there with both hands, looks like he's typing a letter on the neck of that guitar; he was just so good it was stupid.  I couldn't believe how good he was.  I've been fortunate enough to see a lot of people, but this guy was on another planet. 

A lot of the thrash and death metal bands seem to have been inspired at least partially by W.A.S.P.  How do you feel seeing bands doing W.A.S.P. covers, saying W.A.S.P. was one of the reasons they started playing?
Needless to say, anything like that is flattering, but the only way I can relate to anything anybody points my direction, whether they are a fan or another musician that says they've been influenced by what I've done, I have to think of myself in the same breath we were just talking about - what do I feel when I walk into my music room?  One of the Sgt. Pepper's records I have is for 11 million records and when I am sitting in there working and I look around, I'm a fan.  When you do something for so long, it is hard to see yourself in the same light that other people see you in.  I'm just a regular guy, I'm just me.  I look at what I've done, the influence we've had, I recognize it consciously but at the same time, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.  I was reading a blurb the other day where McCartney said, "I don't feel like an idol,' and I know exactly what he means.  Because you're just you.  No matter how many records you sell or how people look at you, you know within your own ability, you become accustomed to whatever your level of ability is and you don't compare yourself to anybody that can't do what you do.  The only thing you think about are the people you think are better than you; that becomes the watermark that you measure yourself to.  In other words, I'm quite sure that anybody, if they're really good at whatever their trade is, whether it is a being an architect or a plumber, and they get used to a certain level of achievement and professionalism, they don’t' probably think about it very much, if they have their feet firmly planted on the ground.  I think anybody that overindulges themselves with their own ego, I've always thought that was insecurity anyway.   I'll give you a good example: you look at musicians especially, the ones who are really stuck on themselves - they are just insecure.  Whenever you meet a musician or an artist of any sort whose been doing what they do for a long time, they're usually some of the nicest guys you're ever going to meet because they don't need to prove anything to anyone, especially themselves.  That's one of the riches with doing what we do if you're able to sustain yourself.

What are your plans for W.A.S.P. next?
While we were making this record, we were working on the next studio album at the same time, which is going to be another concept opera, kind of like what The Crimson Idol was.  I'm very keen on finishing that and hope to have it ready for next year; it's probably going to be a double-record set.  But before that, we're going to go out on tour in October and November here in the States, but it is only going to be North America, it's not going to be the world.  Because, for me to do what I need to do to finish that record, I've got a mountain of work ahead of me and I've got to be pretty diligent about it.